Beyond The Old Agency Model

In this episode of the Estate Agency X Podcast, Mark Burgess speaks with Josh Smith from JAGS Property Group about building a modern independent estate agency. Josh shares his journey from corporate agency, to the self-employed model, to creating his own brand in Gravesend.

The conversation explores database-led growth, professional video, social media, automation, operations, recruitment and how to improve client experience without building a bloated business. It is a valuable listen for independent estate agents and agency owners who want to understand what it means to move beyond the old agency model.

Follow the Estate Agency X Podcast and share this episode with other estate agents who are serious about building better businesses.

Leading Estate Agents of the World – Founding Members Launch

We’ll soon be introducing the first founding members of the network.
If you'd like to be considered for the launch event, register here

https://estateagencyx.co.uk/leadingestateagentsoftheworld

This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Setup

SPEAKER_03 0:00

Welcome to this episode of Estate Agency X. Today I'm talking to Josh Smith from Jags Property Group, based over in Gravesend, but we talk about how Josh got into Estate Agency. What's really interesting in this episode for me is that Josh starts to sum up the new breed of estate agents that have stepped in and are on the right side of this crack that I've spoken about inside the industry, where they just see that the technology and the way of working makes more sense to do it the way that Josh is doing it, rather than perhaps the way that companies have been doing it for the past 30 years. It's a really interesting episode where we dig into his development from working for a corporate to then going self-employed to then starting his own brand, how he's making sure that he keeps revenue per employee high and makes sure that he gives his customers an exceptional experience. Hope you enjoy it.

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Estate Agency X, the UK's number one Estate Agency podcast discussing the future of Estate Agency, entrepreneurship and business. Host Mark Burgess and Rob Brady.

From Rugby Injury To Agency

SPEAKER_03 1:03

Right. Josh, thanks for coming in. For the listeners, it's kind of traditional for us to just start off with you giving a bit of a background on yourself. I don't know how you got into agency, the company that you run now, that sort of stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

So yeah, I'm Josh from Jags. I'm based in Gravesend. Um I've had a business now six and a half years. So used to work for Felicity J. Lord in Canary Wharf and Clark and Well for five years in the corporate sort of setup.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

Um that's pretty much me so far. And how did you how did you stumble into was that your first job in a state agency?

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah, so in I think when I was about 21, 22, I uh I was playing rugby and sort of doing like labouring work pretty much and got an injury with about four dads and he was like, needed to get a job sort of thing. So scrambled around and um yeah, I was was quite interested in it. So he'd had a couple of properties he rented and I said in construction, I sort of got an idea of property and things like that, and I sort of learned about the industry a bit, that that side of things. And yeah, applied for the first job with Canary Wharf. Yeah. Managed to get it.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 2:15

And then yeah, happy days.

SPEAKER_03 2:17

And you where is where were you living at the time when you applied to work in Canary Wolf? Like what made you decide, right, Canary Wolf's the place and not, I don't know, the local town that you were living in, or were you living over there or no?

SPEAKER_01 2:29

I was living back with my dad's in Graves End, so I was in Reading before. Yeah. So I moved back and then I was just sort of researching, looking around. And yeah, a lot of my friends worked up in London. Right. I like the idea of it. So there's a good opportunity that came up. Just seemed like a proper job. Yeah, it seemed like it, yeah. I was quite excited when I first got it in the big smoke and yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:48

Yeah, I can imagine. And then um so you worked Felicity J. Lord for did you say five years?

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Five years, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

Um and then from there, what happened after that? Did you go straight into your own company or I think you went self-employed for a bit?

SPEAKER_01 3:03

Like So yeah, I was with Yeah, Chris Buckler got in touch with me about in my fourth year. So for anyone who doesn't know, like Chris, who's Chris? So he was the what can we call it now? Keller Williams main guy. He had in Blunderbridge, uh, Marcus Hent, that was it. And yeah, he was sort of out there sort of looking around. I had before that, I realised I've been doing some training with uh Sparta Hart, and it was Tom Ferry Um and Tom Panos, and I talked about the network and correcting social media and building a database, and I was doing that, I was doing the social media videos, and then realised all my network sort of back on Bav's end. I was doing all these lovely videos and things, never looking at it, but I couldn't really help anyone. Yeah. And then I started getting to see my friends selling houses, um, family friends, parents of friends who had houses I renting up letting out and selling. And I was trying to find like a a way of getting the tech with not much money and to try and do that to do, do it that way. And then Chris got in touch, and then I sort of researched Keller Williams and all sort of made sense.

SPEAKER_03 4:09

Nice.

SPEAKER_01 4:09

And then yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:10

So so you left uh you left employed and went self-employed with Keller Williams? Yep. And then how long was you working at Keller for? So three years? Three years. And that's where you uh sh moved back to working in Graves End or was you still working?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

So I I'd moved up to London at that point, so yeah, I lived in Canary Wharf and Shadow Waiting for about three years. Right. And I was probably closer and closer I hate commute him. Yeah. Didn't make any sense in terms of time. So yeah, I was as close as I could be. Um and then when I left, I was living in Canary Wharf and I was living in London City Island. Yeah. New development, had like a new coffee shop and all this lot of new stuff. So Park Coder Williams was more about the database from the network, and I didn't really have one, so I just got out there, met as many people as I could. Um, I was doing a business networking event and like a coffee shop and started my name out there. No. So I just started there.

SPEAKER_03 5:03

And then you're running that you're running self-employed model. Did it go well?

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Uh there's ups and downs as you expect. So first probably two months I had most of those 11 instructions. Wow. Sort of lettings and sales, and that was in October 2019, when I started. Yeah. So then obviously March 2020, yeah, everything went shut, and that was when my first two sales um sales, listings, and and sales when the dues go through, and obviously, yeah, everything's shut, so I had to wait until June, July to have to get paid. So that was wobble, but I was getting I had a few left things, listings come in, sort of paying the bills, sort of £50 here, and then I was gonna get £100 and then the top built to £400, so decided um eating away my my income outgoing essentially.

SPEAKER_04 5:52

So Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_03 5:54

And then what made you decide I do still want to be self-employed, but I don't want to be a self-employed agent under Keller Williams. I want to do something for myself as an independent brand.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

It's just a bit of a process, really. So I realised with Keller Williams, it was the skeleton of the business. They had the millionaire real estate agent book. Yeah. Yeah. So I read that a number of times, and pretty much it's the skeleton of how you guys work at Life Scarf Cycle, but with the meat on the bones. So I built a database up, I built like a strong network, but there was sort of a limit to where I could go. Um I was paying the cap, um, which was expensive once we built our team. So I had Jackie joined me in 2020, the back end of 2020.

SPEAKER_03 6:38

And Jackie works alongside you at your current company, Jackie.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Yeah, yeah, she's been there ever since. So yeah, she's the right one.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Was she did you know her before?

SPEAKER_01 6:45

Where did you how did you guys meet? I needed someone desperately. So I'm coming out of the back end of COVID, and obviously the market went uh I went boom. And I had this big pipeline, and I was working with Chris Buckler and Ali Harper, and it got to a point that I didn't really have any money to employ them, but then I couldn't afford not to employ them, so I couldn't have managed the work to come in. So um I had three enough, I had three months, months of salary that I could pay them or pay Jackie. And so went on Facebook, tried to sort of find someone local. She popped up and well, I wasn't just her, I did like a quite intense uh recruitment process. Yeah, she had about four interviews. Part of the process was to read the book. We did a personality profile, and I really went in on it, and the whole point was to try and find like a the future CO, essentially, which is what she's essentially become. Um so I wanted that one person to be with me all the way through and be the implementer, you know, the integrator.

SPEAKER_03 7:40

It's interesting uh talking to you about this because on the one hand, it's like this traditional sort of a state agency story, like, you know, working as a builder or something completely away from a state agency, stumble into a state agency somehow, work for a corporate, and then open an estate agency. But I'm also like hearing lots of stuff whereby I'm thinking, I don't normally people don't normally say that sort of stuff to me, like, like you had this concept already of like, I'm gonna build this network, or I need the software in order to be able to build this network, or I've got this idea around a strategy that I'm gonna do and I'm gonna try and implement that, or you know, I'm looking for a COO, even though I'm a tiny just startup, which is quite interesting. Where do you think, I don't know, where does that where does that side of thinking further ahead about a business come from?

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So when I was in the corporate, to start with, we had the resource, we had like a really, really good strong team, we had administration. It worked quite well as a team, but I was doing a lot of the admin still. I spent two, three hours a day actually doing admin. I'm fairly useless to admin. I'm most an organised person, my diary's a mess. And that's where Jackie really helps. Um over the years, I was with that company, they started asking me to do photos, and they started me to edit photos, and I'm useless to that. So we're trying to promise this amazing service, and then I was spending half of my evening editing photos, and then we have one admin per one office, and then that started to be one admin per two offices and one admin per three offices. So then I became a glorified administrator because that's all I ended up doing because we didn't have the resource. So it sounded a bit back to front, and then when Chris got in touch, um when I read the book, I did my research, that's how Kelly Williams set up. So you should have one agent, and then you have the admins and the um operations team looking after you and making sure things are tightly behind you, and you can go out to the sales, you can do your lead generation and find as many leads as possible. It just made sense ever since. That that that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 9:40

Okay, so what did you what's one thing you think that was important that you learnt when you was working at Felicity J.

Corporate Lessons And Revenue Focus

SPEAKER_03 9:48

Lord? What do you mean? I don't know, you came from a completely different industry. You worked five years at Felicity J. Lord, and after that you decided that you could do this on your own. So, like, I don't know, what's one of the what's one of the things that you think that you learnt while working for what is essentially like like one of the one of the countries, if not the world's biggest estate agencies in terms of heart and the company that owns Felicity J. Lord? Like the people that you worked with, the people that trained you.

SPEAKER_04 10:19

What's one of the things that you think yeah, that was useful to me? I think in London especially, it's the more the intensity. And in lettings, it's the intensity. And that's I'm I'm pretty hard work, I'm pretty aggressive with them.

SPEAKER_01 10:40

Yeah, my work might wake up and go to bed. But in most things that I do, it's that intensity, and that matched working in Canary World for nettings is that the more you harder you work, the more you get out of it. Yeah. And the longer the hours you work, the more you get out of it. Um but I come to realise I wasn't really getting paid for as much of the effort. But that that's where I realised that sort of matched quite well. Yeah. Um, asking the right questions, booking the right people in, um, and not going out wasting your time with people that probably shouldn't.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Yeah. Cause there's like a recurring theme there actually, with that last bit you said, like whereby something's clicking with you that if I focus more on like this stuff that's in pot A, I'm going to get paid more money. But I keep getting dragged across to stuff that's in pot B, and that's starting to piss me off. Like something somewhere is allowing you to see that. And what you've just said there is probably one of the things whereby, I don't know, you shift across into a job whereby you're on commission, obviously, and you get quite good at it. And then you start to, I don't know, Felicity Jaylord and all those sorts of companies are very good with leak tables and all that sort of stuff, you start to see yourself going up, don't you? And go, even if the even if you haven't necessarily got the money coming in in the bank, you're still aware that like you're doing good figures.

SPEAKER_04 11:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 11:57

And then when you're doing non-revenue generating tasks, I guess, you know, it's it's annoying. Um, so that's an that's interesting. And then you switch across to the self-employed model, whereby you sort of think, great, they're going to allow me to focus on just revenue generating tasks because they've got this operational team. But was it purely the fact that like you got to the stage whereby like I'm I'm good at this now, I'm so good that I've hit the cap. Was that the purely the only reason where it was like, you know, might as well just do it on my own now? Or was there something else that sort of made you think, like, actually, you know what, I could I I think there's a better way than this?

SPEAKER_01 12:35

We separated from Keller Williams and then Chris set up his own independent model in which we used Recs, and the tech just wasn't doing what I needed, what we needed to do. So I was bringing in other bits of tech like Mood Power and Valve Power, and I was getting bits and pieces from all over the shop. Had all this extra additional money on top of the cat, but my yeah, margins were getting smaller and smaller. Right. And then went to your EX program. I've always been interested in sort of data, big data, big big companies, and learning about that. But so part of the Kendall Williams model was build your database, which has helped with the transition to lifecycle. Yeah. Because I already had the database, and Jackie essentially she's looked after that, like in a like a pot of gold, essentially, and looked after actually about names, numbers, email addresses, who they are, where they live. We brought that across all the way through. So it seems now we've got the right system. Yeah. Again, I'm not true. Whereas if we didn't, we'd have to start from scratch.

SPEAKER_03 13:28

Yeah. So yeah, it's true. I mean, it's an interesting one, isn't it? Because a lot of people talk about that process and that system, and then like it makes perfect sense, and you sort of peel back the covers and go, Yeah, but you haven't got the system to do it. Like, you've got the principles of the idea, but there's not actually any there's no foundations behind it. So that's interesting. And then um So what year would you say that you started totally on your own? Like it's your business now? Two years ago. Two years ago. Um and what's been the process from there? Like, you know, obviously you started it and you started with Jackie, or you started it and then brought on Jackie, and like, as any uh and are there any other people involved in the business? Yeah, so we've got eight in our team.

SPEAKER_01 14:14

It's uh amazing team, and that's pretty much the sole reason that we've been quite successful, especially in the recent years. So um we had Jackie join in 2020, Michelle joined in 21 that summer.

SPEAKER_03 14:26

So they were there when you were working under a slightly different brand?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

So still building as a self-employed agent, I was only self-employed for a year. Yeah. And then I started building a team within that. Nice. And then Aaron got in touch, he'd been searching for a job. He said he when he interviewed, he had inquired at 300 different state agencies and been turned down.

SPEAKER_03 14:43

Wow. So what made you want him? Was it just the determination, or was there something that you saw that no one else did? He's a really nice polite kid.

SPEAKER_01 14:51

Clearly what was interesting. He's interviewed applied for 300 roles, you know.

SPEAKER_03 14:55

Yeah, it's just mad, didn't it? But like the usual criteria for getting a job in a state agency is like being breathing, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:01

Yeah. So like Yeah, it made no sense. It was such a nice, yeah, you can tell really polite, my mannered, come in his suit, really like obviously he'd just come out of school almost and university, and he's got a bit of an ill-fitted suit and like very young at the time. Um, but the fact that he was trying and trying was great. And the funny thing is that when he first started working for me, he's worked in my shed, potentially. So like uh yeah, we were working from my from home at the time during COVID, and then I was my daughter was about to be born, so yeah, I had to find somewhere to work. So kitted out my sheds, put a desk in there, and then yeah, he'd come around the back every day and come sit in the shed with me. We started from there, so we always joke around about it now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

Yeah, so um so there's eight of you now, and are those those people uh sort of out doing what essentially a a self-employed type agent would do and doing listings and stuff, or is there people in there that are more based around the operational side of things? I I know Jackie's are operational, but what about that?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

Yeah, so um yeah, Jackie was the initial implementer operator, and then Michelle came in and she's done the sales progression, and same thing really. They helped they worked as a team. Yeah. So both in sales progression, they're both done with the administration, the marketing, central media, they're just doing the bits I couldn't do anymore. So I was trying to hand off as much as I could. Then Aaron came in and he helped sort of take the viewings off the back. So he was taking the phone calls, making the phone calls, booking the viewings, etc. etc. So that gave me a bit of a groom there. Um from there, Connor joined um that was at the start 23. He turned up for work experience. It's too good to not keep him essentially. He's really nice, super polite, reliable. And is he on the listening side, the viewing side? Right, okay. Yeah, another agent. So, but yeah, that was a tricky time because that was after distrust at the end of 22. So you start I started to feel the the pinch. Yeah. And it's what we're jumping in. Do I take him or do I not? But yeah, just took him in.

SPEAKER_03 16:56

Okay, and uh so two years into now having your Iron Brand Jags, you've moved, you've moved out of Canary Wolf, you're back in Graves End, right? Yeah. Um what made you decide that you weren't gonna continue in Canary Wolf and you were gonna go back towards Graves Graves End?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Strange, it's it's quite a natural sort of progression, sort of just it kept pulling me back, essentially. So I'd set up a business up in Canary Wharf and that was going really well. I was getting lots of leads and lettings. Um I because of COVID, I moved back with my partner, Nicola, and otherwise I'd have been stuck in a flat with my brother and a few friends, and it's been yeah, what about cabinet fever? So um moved back with my partner. But naturally, because I've been doing social media for like the last few years, naturally people were seeing that I was doing sales, I set my own business up, and naturally people started coming to me for work. Um, friends from rugby were getting in touch and because I've grown up playing there and all my friends and family there. My partner's got a big family there. Um, all across Social, we started getting leads. So naturally it just started.

SPEAKER_03 17:58

Because I guess a lot of people that have never worked in somewhere like Canary Wolf, for instance, would think like, oh, the fees, the the the volume, everything must be must be better and easier in Canary Wolf than it would be to do in, I don't know, Gravesend or any other Essex or somewhere else, somewhere in the home counties. I is that is that not really correct?

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Or yeah, London's faster paced, I'd say definitely a high standard of agency, so it's a bit more cutthroat. So it's no messing around. If you don't pick up that phone or if you take too long to call the evaluation back, it's too late, they've already found someone and probably found a tenant.

SPEAKER_03 18:29

And what's the benefit of working out that somewhere like Graves, then though we can are wolf fit?

SPEAKER_01 18:34

I think the standards and everyone's a bit stuck in their ways. It's definitely mostly agents, large agency back in like 1990s. Just use right move, no photo photos of the average. Some of them don't use floor plans, some don't use videos, so yeah, much better. I think I've come in with a bang and then all of a sudden, yeah, the videos go a long way, the social media, the database sort of locked into them really well.

SPEAKER_03 18:58

And how does somebody who is I I often speak to agents that are self-employed and you know, maybe they've I don't know, maybe they've seen some stuff around our technology, or maybe they've been to one of our conferences or something like that, and they're like, this is this is great, this is this this is this thing for me. But they they struggle with the the dilemma then because they're faced with yeah, but under your self-employed brand, you don't get to decide any of that stuff. Like uh if you decide to do it yourself, you've got other costs that you're gonna need to take on board. How do they how did you navigate that challenge, for instance? Like, what stopped you from just going like, oh well, I guess that's it, then I'm just gonna stay self-employed. Like, there must did you get extra investment? Like, what was the point whereby you thought to yourself, like, you know what? I'm just gonna do it on my own. And yeah, that means that I'm now gonna have to start paying for, I don't know, portals, for instance, or I'm gonna have to start paying other there'll be other things as well.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

Yeah, weirdly, it's it's just been natural progression. So when I joined Keller Williams, I was already paying my own right move fees anyways. Right. So I was paying those on top. Um, because I'd I'd used my own branding when I started. I wanted to do that and not use the Keller Williams brand.

SPEAKER_03 20:13

So what was the benefit of being with Keller Williams?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

That was the thing. To start with, it's it was easy, set low setup costs. So you're paying £150 a month, and then you'd get your right move, you get everything else set up, you get support, and they'd help you grow, you get the systems, you'd have yeah. But you didn't come up with the right move though. To start with, I did. Oh right. And then that changed halfway through. Right. And then I was that's when it started to be like actually. Yeah, and I I think because I got to a point that I'd I'd learnt so much, I'd probably got as much out of there the knowledge and the systems, and I had implemented it all, and there wasn't much else that I could do. So then I was sort of looking elsewhere, was l listening to podcasts, watching as much as I could, learning about different um operating systems, CRMs, and trying to work out what's best. We went over to Rocks briefly, but that didn't go as as smoothly as planned, because I really wanted to create the nurture journeys and be able to market the masses and have it all in one system. So yeah, from there sort of like banned your mind. Where you go over there? 711 forward me.

SPEAKER_03 21:09

Yeah. Um okay. And

Leaving The Model And Building Jags

SPEAKER_03 21:12

on the two years of having your own company. Um what are some of the things you've learned that have either have helped you, um whereby maybe like if you look back over the last 24 months, let's say, and you had to think of a couple of things that were now, in hindsight, kind of milestone moments for you. Maybe you didn't realise it at the time, maybe it was a gamble, maybe you weren't sure whether you should do it, but like you look back now and you go, probably these things were quite pivotal for us over the last two years. I didn't maybe realise it at the time. What do you think some of those things are?

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Uh a videographer.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Full time videographer is that, or is that like they're part of the team, but he's got his own company.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

But we're very, very tight.

SPEAKER_03 22:02

You can use them as and when you want to, right? Yeah, and they'll do it your way. Very good service. They're super reliable. And what do you use? Obviously, I'm guessing you use them for like walkthroughs on houses and stuff, but is that it or do you use them for other stuff?

SPEAKER_01 22:15

So yeah, we're starting to I need to do more of it for sure. So but yeah, we try to do as much community stuff as we can. Um but mainly the video tours. Yeah. The more we get in front of the camera, the the better the videos go. But yeah, the social media is probably our biggest thing. I get the majority of our leads through social media evaluations through social media.

SPEAKER_03 22:33

That's an interesting one, isn't it? Because like, you know, a lot of people see the video tours and they talk about them as if is it necessary to do a video tour to sell a property and all that sort of thing. But it's actually more marketing for sellers, really, isn't it? In the sense that, like, you know, people are watching it going, like, oh, these guys look really good. I think I might get in touch. Is that right? Or you do you when you say you get more leads, do you get do you get a decent amount of leads from it? People saying, like, could you sell my house? Or is it just you get leads of people saying I want to view it?

SPEAKER_01 23:04

Both. Both. Yeah, we I I looked to my my views, we're getting one million to one or five million views a month. Wow. Like all platforms, like Facebook, probably about a million a month.

SPEAKER_03 23:14

And do you have to spend some money to in order to achieve that, or is that just organic? Organic.

SPEAKER_01 23:18

So that's going well. And that naturally if you're getting that many views, people are not in you and and then sort of double down on some leaflets and some local events and local business things and just trying to get more.

unknown 23:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:33

So was somebody's if somebody's thinking like, fucking hell, like it's getting a million views a month.

SPEAKER_03 23:39

Is there any specific technique behind that that you think, oh yeah, we were never used to, but then we started doing this. Is it purely just trying to make them a bit more professional, getting someone like a videographer involved that's helped you with that? Or is there anything else where you think like, you know, we also did this that started to make a difference with how many?

SPEAKER_01 23:58

Consistency is a big one, right? So I've been doing it over ten years now, 10 years. So just being consistent.

SPEAKER_03 24:04

Yeah, because it always seems like an overnight thing, doesn't it? But like in the beginning, I guess you get like one view and your mate's taking the piss, and then gradually, gradually it becomes like a thing that you do, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:14

Um yeah, I used to do it myself when I was first started, and I'd have a gimbal and in 2020 it was actually quite a good video because you'd see the other agents and they'd be looking at the floor, looking at the ceiling, and you wouldn't really see the property, but I'd try and make it as professional as I physically could, but it was with my phone, and then I'd run out of time, I couldn't keep editing them. I was trying to get in the videos, and then I was so busy that I had to sort of start sacrificing the videos to actually be in front of them. I find it hard to train the team because they're trying to learn the rugs from what they're doing anyway. So um, yeah, I spoke to Matt and yeah, the rest of his history and sort of integrated into the service.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

Matt's your videographer.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Match the videographer, sorry. Um integrated into the service, and now across the board we've got the same service. No matter if it's the complete derupper, I'll get professional video. If it's the medium pal house, I get video.

SPEAKER_04 24:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:59

So I love it. And and um in terms of like trying to stay focused on the revenue generating tasks, how are you trying to manage that as you go forward? Because I think you're a really good example of I've spoken many times about this kind of split in the industry, and you're saying you can see it quite easily with the opportunity in Graves End, for instance. It doesn't have to be Graves End, you could pick any home county, I guess. You know, you've got this set of agents that have got this way of working that they've there's been okay, has made a nice living for people for the last 30, 40 years. Um, and there's reasonably simple things that if you're willing to do, like put the effort in to do these things, are making quite a big difference for people. But you've also got this focus that you've had all the way back from Canary Wolf days of like, I'm trying to focus on revenue generating tasks. That doesn't mean that we're not gonna do video and we're not gonna do sales progression and we're not gonna do operations, but like, how are you in your mind trying to make sure that the company has as high a revenue per employee, if you like, as possible, rather than everybody just getting dragged into like, I don't know, we're just we're just nice to people. Obviously, you are nice to people, but you're not gonna be able to do it. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

So that that split is more noticeable more now than ever this year. You can see like the newer agents are coming through that probably thinking about the network and database and um and that sort of marketing and social media, they're now ahead and shoulders above the other agents. Yeah, there's a big divide already. And also you mentioned it a couple of years ago, and God knows where it'll be next year. Um in terms of what we do differently, is that what you mean?

SPEAKER_03 26:40

Yeah, just in terms of your personal mentality towards it as you see Jags pushing forwards, how do you see it continuing to stay focused on high revenue per employee? You know, is it a case of like making sure that you're trying to assist are you trying to systemise more things? Are you trying to create different departments? Like, how does it break away from the what people would just consider the old model? You know what I mean? Like, let's just get two negotiators, we'll put our best one on the front left desk, and we'll have a value behind them and a manager who shouts at them and night, that'll be it, we'll we're set up and done.

SPEAKER_01 27:13

For me, is it's having a really strong operations team, that's the core, knowing how to use the system lifecycle as best we can, make sure that they implement what we can and use it properly, because there's so many bits and pieces that we we might not use it each day, but that makes a big difference. Oh, in total, you don't need a high automations, do you want to do it? Automations, yeah, like the journeys, keep creating the journeys. So that's why I decided to come to lifestyle, and even two years later, we're not fully there.

SPEAKER_04 27:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Um, but we're working on it, but sort of one percent at a time. So those little percents are add up over the over the years. So um, and that'll stop a lot of the work, even if it's just informational in terms of sales progression, instead of everyone asking child questions that go to the blog, or the the AI will then find the right information. Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 28:00

That makes sense. Um what about um the human side of the business? Because it's all very well for people to go, I want more automation, I want a bit of AI, and I want this, but I think a lot of agents that are not necessarily they're not necessarily using AI might worry that I don't just want robots to answer everything for me. Like, you know, I want I want some personality in my company. So how are you how are you going to try and keep that side to the business?

SPEAKER_01 28:32

So yeah, we've got obviously the system works really well. We've also got Sam who's a virtual assistant, she does all the really basic memorandum sales and but uh those bits of beasts, so she takes the weight off of Savannah and Michelle, who are both sort of these sales progressors essentially. So pretty much when you go into Mothers, everyone's on the phone, everyone's speaking to either buyer, seller, solicitor, agent, that that's pretty much all we do. So the human connection. The admin all goes through the system, yeah, or Sam who does it from another country at obviously a lower rate.

SPEAKER_03 29:04

That's a brilliant, that's a brilliant uh example of a saying that I use a lot, which is to I think I got it off the guy who started the four seasons to systemise the predictable so you can humanize the exceptional. Do you know what I mean? Like there's like you're you're saying there, like, you know, there are basic tasks that you can automate, but that doesn't mean you're gonna take away like the human conversation where somebody actually wants, you know, you need to actually you could automate it, but you don't really want to send an automated message saying someone's pulled out of the cell. Do you know what I mean? It's like or or a chaser on like, can we get this over the line? Like they're they're human things, aren't they? They're things that like you need to um emotion you.

SPEAKER_01 29:44

Yeah, and we we've got WhatsApp groups for absolutely everything. So majority of the time we're texting and on the WhatsApp groups. Most of you don't really pick up the phone these days. Some do, some don't. So we'll try email, WhatsApp, last resort, email, um, phone call. But we'll try and stick to WhatsApp as best we can with our clients. And that works really well because they might sort of able to get hold of us really quick.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Yeah. It's like a completely it's it's really interesting conversation because um a lot of the people that we talk to on this podcast have been around in a state agency for let's just say 20 years, 30 years plus. And, you know, a lot of the conversations are about the transformation they've seen, how they how they've adjusted to it, how how they might be able to help someone else see that. What I'm really interested in with this is that I talk to a lot of agents that have been around for 10, 15, 20 years plus, and I try to warn them that there's this different breed of agent that's arrived, and they're not going to bother building Blockbuster when Netflix already exists. And it feels like from talking to you, it's kind of like that. It's like there isn't any other way of doing this. This is just natural. Like, if you're if you're entering a state agency now or within the last, I don't know, let's just say ten years, you're not really caught up on this old way of working that you're seeing all these other agents doing in Gravesend. And it's kind of irrelevant to you what they're doing, because they do a state agency a completely different way to you.

Systemise Admin Humanise The Service

SPEAKER_03 31:16

You see it totally normal to do professional video walkthroughs, use automations to automate the admin, to put the right things in front of the right people, to work like a lean team to focus on revenue per employee as opposed to like just listings, like it's it feels like that's just all perfectly normal and natural to you.

SPEAKER_01 31:35

It makes sense, doesn't it? Yeah, especially now as that. But even our office, we've got a nice little office, but it's not high street office, it's just an office room which we created. Obviously, the cost of that each month is minimal, but we can spend more money on marketing or spend more money on the team. Yeah. It means everyone's getting a bit more time themselves.

SPEAKER_03 31:50

So And that's an interesting one as well, because I've seen people online talk about like, oh, you know, uh self-employed agents or new independents say they don't need an office until one day they open an office and all that sort of thing. It doesn't mean that you'll never open an office. It's just priorities, right? Yeah. Like right now, you can make massive traction with the amount of money that you'd be spending on an office elsewhere. And one day your revenue is going to go up so much, and the and the margins are going to go up so much that yes, you might decide, like, you know what, might as well have a big Starship Enterprise office now as well, just to put the cherry on the cake. It's just priorities at the time, right? Yeah. Uh working smarter rather than just going, I don't know, we're an estate agent, so I suppose we better have a high street office, a couple of negs and a, you know, and an a valuer.

SPEAKER_01 32:36

I held out as long as I could. But um, yeah, the goal is to have a really nice little hub. But yeah, yeah, I used to have Connor and Aaron they used to come to my my bungalow, essentially my house. Um come in at half eight, yeah, rock up, and obviously we're we're getting that house getting ready, etc. Doors running around and yeah, they used to work from the third bedroom essentially. And then yeah, got to a point that the team was big enough and having everyone in one room really helps, having that sort of atmosphere and the culture.

SPEAKER_04 33:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:04

Culture's really important. Um so I think they really appreciate having that room.

SPEAKER_04 33:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:08

Um what what um what's the benefit though of because a self- if when you're self-employed, like a s sorry, when you're a self-employed agent, a lot of people would say like they've got their own business. So what is what's the main benefit that you can see two years down the line of having your own brand over that of um I don't know, be just being a self-employed agent, let's just say, for instance, and I don't know, vice versa. Like what the what the what's the downsides that's better when you're a self-employed agent? Like for anyone who's sitting there that's I don't know, thinking about it, or i i they're in between the two, talking to Josh back back then, the things that you were wondering about, I don't know, what can you see in hindsight, both from a good and a bad point of view?

SPEAKER_01 34:02

Uh the costs obviously were quite extortionate by the time I'd left. So obviously more money were making the more money were paying out, and actually wasn't getting as much back. So that that helped. I think it's a little bit more money for lifecycle, but actually, and you get a lot more value on the back end.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

So um that helps a lot.

SPEAKER_01 34:21

Yeah, in terms of changing over, it was more of just a natural progression.

SPEAKER_03 34:25

What about your role though? Like, your role must have changed, I guess, as well over those two years, like, because when you're a self-employed agent, even though you'd started to build a team, like not everybody's doing that, are they? Like, so I guess your role changes to one of now trying to figure out how to build a company, essentially.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

Yeah, I'm trying to that this year is is I'm trying to step away from the valuations, and Aaron, who's still with me, who's absolutely incredible, but an absolute sponge when it comes to learning, he's sort of now doing valuations. So but I think the issue is me trying to So there you go. Because this is this is the main reason of the company, it's the it's the the income.

SPEAKER_03 35:03

So Yeah, as soon as he doesn't win one, you'll be like shit, I need to get back involved here.

SPEAKER_01 35:07

Yeah, it's it's it's it's the hard one because I don't yeah, it's because obviously he's now he's we're so busy, everyone's up there, um the band is fully stretched again, so we need to we're trying to recruit. So I think if we recruit one more person, I can sort of hand over the reins to him, and then I can really step back. And I do fully trust him, and I know he'll do a good job, but yeah, sometimes it's one of those things of sort of holding on to it. But it's always been the case, even uh any new person I've sort of recruited, it's sort of okay, there you go, sort of thing. So um, but yeah, my my this year we're sort of working on the culture. We made a few hires last year which didn't really go to plan. That was one of the biggest, that was probably one of the hardest years we've had.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

What did you learn from that? Spend more time with the recruitment process.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Don't I don't try and I was trying to push the wrong person to the the role.

SPEAKER_03 35:54

So why why though? I mean, like, because you know, most people think they're pretty good at that, like so what what made you want them? And then what made you in hindsight go, I always knew this person wasn't right?

SPEAKER_01 36:05

Yeah, on paper, like it all looked good, they said the right things, they got through the door, um, they like did my doing social media, etc. Um, but she wasn't passionate with estate agency. And it's more of a job, um, which everyone on my team, they've all wanted to get into a state agency, and they put all guns blazing, they'll they'll be committed outside hours, they'd do it to go the extra mile just because they really love it, you know, whereas with the wrong person, they'd go and drop some keys off and they'd take an hour to get home to get back to the office, and everything was really slow, and it was yeah, putting everyone back. So it just wasn't really working. Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it?

SPEAKER_03 36:40

Because like of the people where did what was Jackie doing before, do you know?

SPEAKER_01 36:43

Yeah, she was pretty much a legal secretary, sort of PA.

SPEAKER_03 36:47

And what made her want to leave and join you then?

SPEAKER_01 36:49

I think it's just the right time for her. I think she I think she'd finished with one of the jobs that she had, and she just wanted something a bit purpose, something a bit more meaningful.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

And I had quite a big vision at the time, so that's all how it got through the door.

SPEAKER_04 37:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

Um so she could see it. And I think now if we look up scales, we've got pinch sales and books up, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:08

It's just interesting because you you know you mentioned the uh the other chap who went on, you know, tried 300 different estate agencies, and and there was this another guy who like, you know, just wanted an opportunity, like, you know, so uh when you're in a small business sometimes, I think there is a danger. Obviously, every company's different, every company's got a different culture and different rules, so that is that doesn't apply to everybody, but quite regularly, I think what I see with small businesses is that they they like the idea one day of being able to employ what people might consider qualified people. You know, this person's been I don't know, yeah, let's say take my company as an example, like you know, maybe someone who's worked for Google. God, wouldn't that be amazing? Like, but it turns out those people are shit for small businesses because when you work at a company like Google, no one knows you exist, you're just close along. It's just a job. Like you can just hide under everybody else. I remember talking to my friend once who was very high up at HSBC, and I was just we was I was at her house and we were chatting, and I was just saying, like, how can it be that you've got uh tens of thousands of staff and developers and everything and your online banking is shit.

SPEAKER_02 38:23

How is that possible? And she was just saying, like, yeah, but you've got to remember in your company, like you can create a culture where people come to make a difference.

SPEAKER_03 38:34

You know, it it it doesn't work like that if you work at HSPC. You come to get paid and then you go home. And unless someone specifically says, do this today, you come in and type on your computer and leave. So like in a small business, quite often people make that mistake, like you say, of like, on paper, this person looks great, but actually sometimes you're better off finding somebody that on paper looks a bit shit, but they desperately want an opportunity.

SPEAKER_04 39:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:00

Um and if you can inspire them with the vision and stuff, then like, you know, that usually works out better, right?

SPEAKER_01 39:06

The team are absolutely amazing and they absolutely love it, they they look after the clients so well, and yeah, they they go above and beyond, and that that's really the sole reason why we're doing so well.

SPEAKER_04 39:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Um, because if you do one good job and that tanks are three, it's exponential, isn't it?

SPEAKER_04 39:20

So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 39:21

And if you can then market that to other people and then it amplifies it even further.

SPEAKER_03 39:24

So where do you see as somebody that's uh sort of built this new version of a state agency and is having success with it two years down the line now, already up to eight people like starting to dominate in a in an area and seeing that divide, where do you see this going uh over the course of the next few years in terms of your business and a state agency in general?

SPEAKER_01 39:48

I've always thought I kept it organic and obviously now we're doing the accelerator programme, it sort of opened up my sort of eyes again to sort of setting better goals. Whereas when when I first started, we set a one-year goal, three-year goal, five-year goal, and then that um the huge goal, the 10, 15-year goal. Um, and then now with five, six years in, we've sort of overachieved based on what we put put down, which we almost thought wouldn't even be possible. So it's sort of resetting, uh going again and seeing where we can we can get to, really. So yeah, it's not about selling the most houses, it's more about doing it properly. Um when I speak to my sellers, it's like we I just want to make sure we don't cut any corners, I don't take any resources away from my team, I want to give them every opportunity to give you that best service they can they can offer, make sure they've got the time and make sure the whole team got the time to spend with you.

SPEAKER_04 40:40

And that's through tech, that's through being flexible with their time, they want to Yeah, have a day off here and not have a day off there, and just make sure Yeah, that we we don't cut any corners, that's the biggest thing.

SPEAKER_01 40:54

Like when I look around, you one age and mine, I have a sales progressing team. You know, I spoke to someone, they said that um the front end was great, and then as soon as I went to the back end, they only had one sales progress you can speak to once a week. It wasn't even part of their company, you know. So we've got two sales progressors um that they'll have their own person that looks after the sale from start to finish. So every client's got one person they deal with all the way throughout the process, and then obviously the team dip in and dip out with viewings and how do you manage that in terms of like well, what about when you get busy?

SPEAKER_03 41:25

What about when you get really busy and like I don't know, those two people can't cope? Like, is it a case that like you limit the amount of profit you should take, or is it a case that you have to increase the team or I don't know, or is it just not not to lent that you've had to do that?

SPEAKER_01 41:37

Yeah, naturally our fees gone up. So, yeah, as the busier we get, the higher the fee sort of goes up. So that's one one part. Recruitment, that's obviously one of the biggest challenges. So it's trying to

Proving Value With Data And Pricing

SPEAKER_01 41:51

plan ahead. So like we're recruiting now, so if no one's looking for a role. Um but yeah, trying to trying to plan ahead and manage that. So that that's hard.

SPEAKER_03 42:01

So, okay, so my last question then, because we ran out of time, is if you were speaking to sellers, why? Why bother using Jags? I don't know, there's loads of estatians in Gravesend.

SPEAKER_01 42:14

Yeah, I always say that we we do whatever agent does, but we do a hell of a lot more. Um, and that's with the database. We've got a huge database, I'll just describe how the database works in terms of um sort of the Netflix percentage part where where you match properties with the right clients, and there's sort of no um parameters like Right Move, so I always discuss that. Um social media, it's it's huge. I always mention about how many views we get and how not just the views, but actually how many sales we make through it. Um and then how tight knit the team is, obviously, with local. I see I'm from Greensend, got a huge network around there. So um, and you can just see with just well, Google reviews, and there's a there's a lot, I suppose with the 7114 now. You can really 7114 us, there's blogs all over the shop, you've got lots of social media, so yeah, yeah, and and we do get a lot of yeah, so they spend a lot of time they know they know a lot about big form go out there.

SPEAKER_03 43:03

So there's a lot of stuff in there that like maybe a listener knows or maybe they don't know, just to break it down. Like in terms of 7114, you're talking about uh these people are being influenced because they're seeing you in multiple places, right?

SPEAKER_02 43:17

Yeah, for sure, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:18

So they're seeing your videos on social media, uh, they're maybe going into your software that's then sending them on different nurture journeys, putting content in front of them, and then they're seeing your physical boards, I guess. And then before you know it, they're having a conversation with you on evaluation and all of these things you feel are leading towards them just building a better rapport and wanting to use your company as that's part of it.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

Pretty much, yeah. And I really get involved in the community as best we can, do charity events, sports events, I sponsor local schools, local events. Yeah. Um I've I've got local businesses that are out. I help, my family's got little local businesses that I share out.

SPEAKER_03 43:53

Um so that's leading to people making inquiries, and then you're getting out on the on an evaluation with somebody and you You say that you're digging into the database and showing them how that side of things works. So for people that don't know what that means, because they're I don't know, maybe they're sitting there using one of the old softwares that you used to use, and they're going, well, I could go in I can go in my database, I guess, and show them like how how how are you explaining that to somebody that's slightly different.

SPEAKER_01 44:20

Yeah, I literally show them so yeah, like I always forget how it used to used to be. Now I'm so used to how it is now. So um yeah, you literally show them how much if it's a three-bed semi, I can show them how many people are looking for a three-bed semi and I can dig into them. I'll show them how it works.

SPEAKER_03 44:33

In their exact location rather than just like randomly across the whole of Kent, right?

SPEAKER_01 44:37

And they're they're um active in the last eight weeks, right? Um and yeah, I can show them, I should I explain that they get an email as soon as you go live.

SPEAKER_03 44:45

And wouldn't the seller then just say to you, I mean just playing devil's advocate, obviously. Wouldn't the seller then just say to you, like, yeah, I know, but pfft and I'm just gonna put it on the right move. Like, why do I care that you've got those, I don't know, 20 people in the database?

SPEAKER_01 44:58

I suppose when you sell out home, you it's it's the demand that gets the the price right. So any agent can sell, I would say that you can use public if you wanted to, but it might cost you any money, but upfront, but it'll cost you a lot of money when it actually comes to selling it and the price you achieve. So we've got a whole caseload of case studies where we've achieved sort of significantly more than other agents. So there's one that um another chance of property under 500,000, some five months wasn't shifting, can sell it. We took changed the pricing strategy, we did the videos, um, the database, and in a week we sold it at 535.

SPEAKER_04 45:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:30

You know, so it doesn't matter what my fee is at that point. I always say you could they could charge me £20,000 and I'd make more money still.

SPEAKER_03 45:37

Absolutely. So so you've got this you've got this front-end machine of marketing that's trying to get you seen in as many places as possible and getting people familiar with the brand. You've then got uh specific technology that's helping you to do that bit, but also to help you to back it up on the on evaluation with your own IP, your own database of people that maybe uh maybe right we've got more browsers, but you've got more buyers, if that makes sense. Like you can identify who they are faster. And then the final piece is the proven case, the proven case studies, right? Of going like, okay, but here's the evidence. What do you what is it you're looking for? You know, are you looking to advertise your house or are you looking to sell it for the most money? And so that is it, would you say is that the it's the combination of those three things that's allowing you to um really sort of for someone to identify my original question, why should I bother using Jack's?

SPEAKER_01 46:35

Yeah, I not every agent, not every set of ones is going to be perfect. We've got a match, we've got a line.

SPEAKER_03 46:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 46:40

Totally. So yeah, I'm happy not to take a listing on and I'm happy to say, yeah, if you don't pay the fee, there's obviously a lot of other cheaper agents out there, but it overall it'll probably cost you.

SPEAKER_03 46:48

But if you're looking for this specific thing, then like I do it for you.

SPEAKER_01 46:51

If you want good communication and you want to be uh able to reach us at any point, um if you want to be able to get hold of if you can't get hold of me, but you've got the whole team at hand. You want that. You want to make sure you're you've got the mod modern marketing techniques out there and you want the drone for geography, you want the staging, you want all of this. This is what it is, this is what it's gonna cost you. But actually, if you if you you pay this, only if we sell your house, you just get painting up front. But this is what you get on the back end, and actually, if you look at all our stats, we're achieving three to four percent more than yeah, local agents. And then you work out the numbers behind it, so your house is worth 500,000. What's the difference in three percent? That's the difference. I love it.

SPEAKER_03 47:25

I love it. So if somebody's listening to this and uh either they are thinking that they want to work with you um or they just want to ask you more questions, where are they most likely to get some sort of reply if they were to send you a message? Or is there a particular platform you you check more regularly than any of the others? Like, how can anyone get in touch with you?

SPEAKER_01 47:44

Yeah, WhatsApp's the best. Give us a phone call, yeah. All our details on Google. Um, yeah. Anyway, really? Emails? So perfect.

SPEAKER_03 47:51

Yeah. One of them all day long, yeah. So okay. Yeah. Love it. Thanks very much for coming in. Love it, thanks. All right.

Subscribe And Final Thanks

SPEAKER_03 47:56

Thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? Uh, it helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check, whatever your um podcast platform of preference is, that you're actually subscribed, and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.