Built on Her Own Rules

What does it take to walk away from a toxic workplace and build an estate agency entirely on your own terms? Julie Burns knows. After 15 years in property feeling “spoken down to” and controlled, she left it all behind, swapping sales for a master’s in photography, travelling to Palestine, and working on film sets. Those experiences reshaped her view of work, leadership, and freedom.

When she returned, she did it differently. Naming her agency after a Viking warrior goddess, she launched Freya North in 2021 with zero capital, funding it through property sourcing until completions came in. She posts her fees openly, personally handles every transaction from valuation to completion, and refuses to expand faster than her service can keep up. If the client experience slips, she simply stops taking on more stock.

Her strategy is just as unconventional. Instead of setting up next to other agents, she put her office beside a protein shake shop buzzing with young professionals, tomorrow’s buyers and investors. It’s a masterclass in finding an edge by ignoring industry habits.

This episode is for anyone who’s felt trapped in a culture that didn’t value them, or who dreams of building a business that truly reflects their values. Julie shares the principles that guided her: start with revenue-generating services, obsess over the client experience, and never be afraid to write your own rules.

The property world doesn’t need more copycats. It needs more innovators willing to reimagine what’s possible.

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This episode is sponsored by Iceberg Digital, the AI Operating System for Estate Agents. They replace outdated CRMs, disconnected marketing tools, and manual prospecting with one intelligent, AI-driven ecosystem, built to increase revenue per employee and future-proof your agency. https://iceberg-digital.co.uk/

Transcript

Introduction to Julie Burns

Speaker 1 0:00

Estate NCX the UK's number one estate NC podcast discussing the future of estate agency entrepreneurship and business. Hosts Mark Burgess and Lord Brady. Welcome to this episode of Estate NCX.

Speaker 3 0:14

Today I'm talking to Julie Burns from a company called Friar North. You're going to love this episode, because Julie talks about how to reinvent the rules of your small estate agency. We talk about her background, where she's been in property for over 20 years. She's taken a break from property, done a master's degree in photography, she's traveled to Palestine. She's been all different places all over the world Great experience. But what I really love about it is that she doesn't care about what the rules of her estate agency are. She's making her own rules and it's pulling off.

Speaker 1 0:47

So, julie, welcome to podcast and to have them. Uh, I appreciate you always, you coming down from the north, as with any of our guests down to london. Sorry, um, anyone listening out there. We've got julia with julie from fray and north. I found a really interesting fact about this, about what the name was and why it came about. So just a bit of background for anyone who's listening. Who are you? How long have you been set up? The background of Freya Morph.

Speaker 4 1:13

Okay. So everybody actually called me Freya now, so when you're Freya Morph, you can call me whatever you want. If you're from Liverpool and you're watching this, everyone calls you Julie. You don't call me Jew, who knows.

Speaker 4 1:24

So, brea Hayes, when I decided to set up my own agency with Buzz in September 2021, I'd left the industry, where I was very much fed up with being spoken down to the controls, constantly nagging and saying to be in the business, and I thought that's a really badass, strong, independent woman's name and I looked it up on google, as we do. You know, it's that rabbit hole and freya is a viking warrior and I thought that's me. That is me to the core. I'm not taking any more stick, I'm gonna do it myself. And then, of course, north, because we're the new year, so that's where Freya North comes from. It is. This is how I'm going to do it and I know what I'm doing and I'm really good at what I'm doing. And that's Freya. A lot of people think is it my daughter's name? No, it's not. Her name's Robin. But no, that's where Freya comes from and I'm going to keep it to that and keep that brand and keep it cool, but not necessarily always just wear brabant with the men as well. And so a bit a little bit about my background, to be really quick with that, because there's a lot that I've done.

Speaker 4 2:37

So I got into property while I was on maternity eve, uh, with my son, and I'd not long come back from traveling and working aboard and met someone, had my first born been working in customer service at BT, sort of had all of that training on customer service before, and the ex's mum then was working for a company called Venmos which is quite big in Liverpool and they needed somebody to help in the maintenance department, so taking all the calls, booking in the repairs, and then I kind of worked there for a few years, came in right at the bottom, no training, pick up the phone, deal with the abusive customers the worst of the worst. They were dealing with the maintenance. And then I just then went on to a little company working for a developer called Beat them and you probably know those from the lifespan of Birmingham, manchester, liverpool, working in the property management and the investment side and then stayed in property management, lettings, investments, brought 10, 15 years and then for me it kind of got very cut through industry. I don't know whether that was just happening in Merseyside but there was just this huge competition and all agents going at each other and trying to get all of the properties. Lots of new developments. Liverpool was changing massively after the capital culture 2008. So of course there was lots of projects going on, lots of money being spent. So all the agents wanted a part of that Spent up with the kids' dad and I just wanted to just come out of it and just refresh and just do something else.

Speaker 4 4:23

And then I went on a bit of a self-discipline journey, came out of it for a couple of years, went and done a degree, done a teaching degree, done a master's degree, went over to Palestine, worked in the West Bank, put on an exhibition, all awards for photography, worked on film sets because I'm fortunate that I've got lots of friends who work in TV and production. They give me lots of opportunities. In that time I met my husband and he was like get back into property, just get back into it. And actually the guy who gave me a free office in the film production company in Merseyside I knew him because I used to manage his properties years and years ago and I always had a really good relationship with him and he's like you know we're on this journey during this and he was getting me photographing Tim Ra and you know, working on all these big sets that I wouldn't have the opportunity to do. And he always said to me as well, you're good at photography, but you're better at property, get back into it. So I went to work for somebody else.

Speaker 4 5:27

Then actually they reached out to me on LinkedIn and said would you ever get back into investments? And what they were doing was working with overseas investors. You have a lot of Hong Kong with British national passports. There's no passporting buying over here. A couple of years ago, you remember, they were all buying up lots of stock, especially in Liverpool and Manchester, and my job really when I got back into the property side of it was to just not focus on the sales and letting not the letting, sorry, but more the investments. So sourcing properties, so working with lots of other agents, so going to agents in Liverpool, manchester, buying up properties, telling these investors what the retain on the investment was, then retaining that management side of it through the agency I was working for and then it would go over to them. So very quickly started at zero and then I was completing on 30 ports of properties a month for this company Was there a couple of years Didn't like the way the things were working and I didn't like that whole different department where one department was really good and at the sales and we were giving them the clients the what they needed and that level of customer service.

Speaker 4 6:37

Then it would go over to the managers and we fall apart. Then the client would be complaining and coming back to me. Um, and there was just that constant battle with the maintenance team as well and just arguing with people and I just thought we were really unhealthy and I felt like I was before I went and done the degrees and went on to Israel and thought it's not for me again and my husband was, like, just set up on your own. And I did and I quit and I had nothing. I had no money, can't make money, because I was actually in Croatia at the time getting my teeth done at the shop.

Speaker 4 7:11

Just do, just do. And I was like company's house, 70 or quid, whatever it was, and just do it. I can do it If I can sell 30, 40 properties and work with all these other agencies. And also at that time I could see what other agents should have been doing but weren't doing. I was like I can be better now and I can have my own department structured the way that I want to do it.

Speaker 4 7:35

So I had zero pound in the bank because it just spent the last seven grand that I had on tea, which I'm really happy with, and I just went at it. And I just went, put all the same energy into it that I always had done working for other people but for myself. And what happened was that snowball effect where clients were getting me to source properties for them and it was fortunate, because I was sourcing properties, that they were paying a deposit, because without that I didn't have no funds working for completions to come through. So one client told another client told another client and then those properties came on for management and I've been doing now lessings since 2001 in my own business, but over a few hundred lets now just brought in a new lessings manager and then recently, in the last six months, started to do sales, but doing sales differently, with a different structure, um, and it's really taken off and to the point where I'm bringing in staff, I'm mentoring staff and and we just opened up the shop, uh, about a minute and a half ago now and and I've managed to acquire just £4.5 million worth of stock from those last few months.

Speaker 4 8:49

So I'm doing something right. I don't know how I'm doing it, but I'm doing it and I think it's just being a real people person. So that was kind of where I am. I could probably sit here and tell you about sweaty heads you're wearing Alice, it's like that is, but there's lots of other. Well, I am. I could probably sit in tables. Why do you have to earn hours? Speak that out, speak to the part you want, but there's lots of other things.

Speaker 3 9:08

So let's start with the sales side that you started. Is that just normal, what most stations would consider sort of residential homes, or is it sort of the new developments? Or how does the sales side of your business work, just, normal. Just go around and see people for valuations and sit in their front room and talk to them.

Speaker 4 9:29

Yeah, and that's what we do, isn't it? And I think it's getting in the front door and I was doing an evaluation last week and me and this woman were talking about HRT and the menopause and everyone will agree with me and everyone who works in sales you're not just a sales agent. You've got to be a people person and that's what I'm doing and also a lot of investors that I've worked with in the past or may have properties with us that they're asking me now to sell. So it's mainly that and just the reputation that I've bought over the years. Now people know that I'm doing sales and coming to me to sell properties that they have over the years. Now people know that I'm doing sales and coming to me to sell properties that they have.

Speaker 1 10:06

Yeah, it was a natural evolution because of the clients we tend to speak to, or clients we've got or pick or read in the Popeye's, if they've come from say that property management, lettings, property sourcing, naturally you're delivering some service to someone that they like you because they're a client of yours, and then we tend to find that a lot of them tend to move into sales, naturally because people are asking them can you sell something for me? And you're like, well, you can use that agent there, but you still know they're not going to deliver the same service.

Speaker 4 11:22

So is that why it's happened in the last sort of? I think for me it was more natural with the lessons because because it was, fortunately for me, my husband's my builder, so he has his own buildings company, so everything goes to him through the buildings. So really for me I knew at some point I wanted to be a one-stop shop for everything so the client can then eventually come to us for property sourcing, then the management, because they know then the sale is going back to what I was saying before with the other agency that I worked for. It kind of fell off at that end and the level of service wasn't there in the property management. So for me it was very much about I want that to be across the board. So is the maintenance team great? Not that he's just because he's my husband. If he wasn't great at what he did, I wouldn't pass the weight to him because it's all about the communication With the sales. It wasn't the same process.

Speaker 4 12:14

The reason I went into sales is that when I was property sourcing with other agents in the area in Liverpool and Manchester I didn't know who I was speaking to. I could be doing a sale from April and it was still going through because maybe there was an overseas buyer and they were having issues with the mortgage and it was just taking a long time that by the time we got to the end of the sale that staff member had left because of the high staff turnover. So I was finding that there wasn't really someone, there wasn't a go-to person. So for me I thought we'll start having delivering a service that other agents aren't delivering, and there's nothing worse than walking into when the state agents I found will warn you feeling intimidated because the girl or the guy behind the desk really don't know how to speak to you. And, um, just having that person that you knew, if you called up that that person would have the answer, even if they were on lunch or they were on holiday, just giving that customer that satisfaction is what I've given them for the property sourcing in the lessons and I thought, well, I want to start doing that within our community in the area that I'm working in, and just given that level of service in sales as well.

Speaker 4 13:24

So for me I work differently. So when I go out to do the valuation, I'm there from the beginning to the end. There's no, it goes to a lister, it goes to a sales progressor. It goes to them because I don't want people then passing it around. So then when I onboard more staff, they will also do the same. So they will be the valuer, they will be the closer. So that's the way that I'm going to do, whether they start on board in themselves employees in the self-employed model or they come as an employee, but that's the structure of the company, because I just want everyone to be responsible for their client and then that that will generate more leads, because they know, okay, if I need jury and send a whatsapp, if I need such and such person, I can reach out to them.

Speaker 4 14:08

And I think for me it wasn't the same as the lettings, it was just what. How can I stand out differently? Because ultimately, we have to follow regulation. You have to do things the way that it's designed. We're not reinventing the wheel when it's coming to lettings and sales, but what we do have to do is think of how are we going to give our customer that service? And for me it's about being accountable for the way that you're in.

Speaker 3 14:36

Do you think that there's stuff? When you left the industry and you went to Palestine and worked in the film sets and photography, and even when you went back to university studied, was there stuff around all of that that you then brought back and applied to out to this industry or not really?

Property Career Journey

Speaker 4 14:58

right, 100%. There was a time, 12-13 years ago, I've bunked on the bus with my daughter from school. I didn't have any money, but for me, I had to get out of the industry and it was. I was a single mum. They obviously had a dabby scene, dabby stuff like that. What we do, what we've got to do. And I grew up I've got two brothers, two sisters. My mum worked two jobs. My dad was worked very way see my parents and it was like, you know, go to school, play out, feed yourself, you know, and that's the way that I think it's where I was brought up. And then also, when I left school, I also done quite a lot of traveling as well. I was fortunate to to get jobs that I wouldn't have got elsewhere.

Speaker 4 15:40

I didn't go to university when I left school, but when I went on to Palestine, of course I seen a lot um, on the second day that I was there didn't do it. So then I seen and someone stabbed to death, like for me, to that door, and that really impacted me and actually my initial uh master's uh thesis was on uh working with the IDF from New England to Egypt. But it shifted very quickly when I was over there and that empathy. Then and then I was working in the West Bank and I was working with families and you know they were taking me on to the group talks where normally they wouldn't be able to go because they wasn't safe. And having that freedom and doing all of that experience and working on the film sets and working with people in high pressure jobs when you are on film sets it's like it's a lot of hard work. It really is hard work and you know they work on these projects filming for like three, six months but they're not sleeping because they're working from like six in the morning till three the next night and I think a lot of that that I brought back with me as well. You know have done this as a single mum as well um, you know I've been able to go and do that. I've witnessed so much. Um, and also knowing that I came from the family where you have to go to work and he went to night, he got to do it and I think maybe if I hadn't have done that well, I know for a fact if I hadn't have had that time away and then come back, I probably wouldn't have put as much energy and effort. Maybe I would have, because I've always been ambitious, um, but more so going out to Palestine and seeing that and seeing what goes on and and understanding it, because I was there and then also working in that environment where the biggest thing for me about my business is about creating opportunity.

Speaker 4 17:24

And the guy that I was working for on film sets and stuff he's very much an advocate for that in Merseyside Colin McEwen. He's a film producer. He's done books I had with him. He's done lots of other fantastic projects since I was working on reception one day and, um, one of the guys he used to be one of the doctor, who was? He coming to do some editing and you've been directing something. And he's like, oh, this is julie, she's on the reception, but she's actually done a master's in photography and really likes Sunday praises and didn't just go. Oh, she's just my receptionist. He's like, no, they've done this and they've done that and he does that for everybody and gives you opportunities. So I've taken that as well and you know, I've just on boards as a new lessons manager. I brought her with me. Today.

Speaker 4 18:06

Most of the people probably like you know, you need to go back to the office answering the phone. Yeah, people can make for a day. They can keep doing that. So I'm very much about yeah, I'm running a business. I want it to be successful, but I want to give opportunity. So I want to be working in schools in the area, going out and teaching them about how you can leave school and start a business, uh, ways to navigate around that, um, and how to work with other people as well, and you know, the world's a very different place now, isn't it? To answer, I was going up any may, um, so, yeah, I did bring a lot from that and I think empathy is the biggest thing and we do actually need that and sales and messings anyway, because we're looking after people's biggest assets.

Speaker 3 18:50

And do you think, how do you? What would you say to somebody who says, you know, I just I haven't got the money to start a business? Or to I can't quit my job because you know after you know I can't, I can't get out of this rut that I'm in. Whatever that rut might be, it sounds like you've experienced that many times in half and just gone oh, I've solved it, I've solved the problem. So is that just? You know, that's just mindset. Or how do I? How do you look at that when somebody's saying to you like, oh, there's nothing I can do about my circumstances?

Speaker 4 19:29

yeah, I mean I'd read a law. I never used to, but I do now and I love self-help books, so anything that's going to give you a growth mindset, you a fixed mindset. So I think in life we all, we're all at different stages. So for me, when my children were younger, I couldn't, I wouldn't have even taken that risk. And I know a lot of women and men now are joining franchises and and mitigates because they have that security then because, as you know, running a business and running lettings and sales, we have so many overheads. It is achievable.

Speaker 4 20:05

I did do it and the way that I did it was through property source and so a lot of the time there is people and I'm on the woman in estate agency group and you do see a lot where they say, oh, we want to leave this really toxic environment which of what I did and it was a very sexist toxic environment that was in I'm a bridge of what I did and it was a very sexist toxic environment that I was in where I actually felt threatened and I think at that point it was just do or just quit and then have no job. So for me I would say, if you're going to do it and you've got no money. Think of all the things that you can do, like I did with the property sourcing. So maybe if you're in a job where you don't feel happy, start sourcing. So maybe if you're in a job where you don't feel happy, um, start putting that training into place, and so people always call like a side for small. So you could probably start doing a bit of property sourcing. Or I don't know, maybe if you're good at staging properties or doing photography or getting your journal license, I think if you can start doing something that you can bring into your business at the beginning, where you know you're going to get a revenue which is what I did that will probably be the best way to do it, to structure it. So then it's like now I'm doing sales, they're all in the pipeline, that money's not going to come in for them in a few months, and I've just done bonded staff. So at the minute the lessons is going to keep ticking over to pay, pay.

Different Approach to Sales

Speaker 4 21:21

So for me, anyone who's looking to start out, I would say do have something else going as well. And so if you are looking at doing the lessons, the lessons will start to build up, but it's slow, slow and steady. I mean I had over 100 in the first years and were really quick for me. But just have something else that's just going to keep paying your bills.

Speaker 4 21:42

I was just telling on the other guys, before you're talking upstairs, about how when I first started, zupalu were trying to onboard me for advertising and I managed to get them down to 10 pounds and sorry, zupalu, if you watch this, but I did and a good salesperson can do that.

Speaker 4 21:58

It's like I haven't got no money, I haven't got any properties to list and even if I had one there and when I first started my management fees were seven percent because I just wanted the business calling in and then eventually, once you've got a reputation, you can change it. So I just say to anyone who's looking to start a business just have something that can generate you some sort of income. Um, if you're not looking at those uh models where you are gonna have to then pay salon, I do get asked to join those franchises a lot of the time and people will reach out to me, but for me, you know, I very rarely pay myself a wage at the moment, I'm just making sure everything's ticking over. But I want that freedom and five, ten years time, like I'm like I'm not tied into paying someone else for my work, because I think inside me there's a part of me that probably eats away at me. I wanted to remove myself away from answering to someone else you're on the fee side to it.

Speaker 1 22:55

What I found interesting on your website, you actually promote your fees yeah on there like yeah, it was one thing that Mark predominantly took to a lot of agents about is then putting it on there and some of them say, oh, I don't want to do that, in case you know, competition knows. I mean, I noticed that you put nine year management fee but actually your sales fee on there is 1.2%, I think it is 10 yeah, and go on there like what, what made you?

Speaker 1 23:20

what made you? Go like most agents don't do this, but I'm gonna just do it and put it on there but the lettings issue.

Speaker 4 23:27

So I um, when I was awarded to recently by property mark all and I do put it on, but they do say you are supposed to do it and a lot of agents do with the letting side yeah um, but that's how I win business by being transparent.

Speaker 4 23:41

I've got nothing to hide.

Speaker 4 23:43

When I was doing my market research, when I was going into sales, I was phoning up a lot of the other agents because that's what that wouldn't do as a business owner, don't you so? But they hounded me, but they would not tell me what their fee was. And it was like someone was reading off a script, like I used to do many years ago when I was working at BT. You know the reading office goods, just a robot. There was no one who'd be like oh, this is what we do, these are our fees. And they were like well, we'll just book you in. I said, no, you're boring, because I'm not going to invite someone into my home. I mean, it wasn't so many property, right, but I'm not going to invite someone into my home unless I know, because I'm not having Delbert coming in thinking he can swindle me out of two percent fees, when I'd rather know what I'm dealing with. So when you come to your property yeah, you can explain you say this isn't what you're gonna do and why you think you're worth that value. But for me, to put it on my website, it's all about for me anyways. Well, transparency from the beginning to the end, and that accountability there is from the offset. So it's you know what our fees are. Terms of business are on there you can see the fee sheet.

Speaker 4 24:44

I've got nothing to hide, whether we take kickbacks from contractors where everything's there and everything's strategically put together. So then I'm not locking myself into the office. I have cut myself a new office in the new shop. I don't even sit in there because it's just not me. Um, come in. Come in and talk to me. It's. I've told you from the start what we're about and these are these. This is what we are. We're not lying, we're not telling any poor keys. We are what we are. If you decide to then go with another agent down the road who says they're going to give you 10, 15 grand more, that's fine. I'd actually prefer you to go and experience that and then come back to me in a few months. So that transparency is really important to me, and I think not just on your website, but in the valuation, the initial phone call come into the office, have a chat, look at the interior design books that I've got.

Speaker 1 25:37

And do you find that, because of predominantly, your background hasn't been traditionally a state agency, you're not sort of? You have these bad old habits of decades of we always do it this way, don't do it this way, competition? It seems like you've just gone. I'm going to work out my formula, how I want to do it, do my own research and then I'm going to put out what I believe, rather than going let's just copy everyone else.

Speaker 4 26:04

Yeah, and I think it's very good. I do switch off because I'm reading that book at the minute, the Lettuce Day and I know a lot of people have eaten that and I think we just need that in everyday life and we're driving along in some lumpy like cut you up or whatever, just let them whatever. Just let them, just let it go. And I think for me, when I uh opened the shop, I um, I think I told you this when we spoke about how I was targeting an area that I wanted to be in, where I was away from other agents, because I wouldn't want to put myself next to other high street fans because you're adding too much pressure to yourself. Then as well, and as I knew, a lot of people say, well, you knew, but I'm not. I've been in property since 2001. I just would a new agent in that area and I was waiting for that specific area because I knew there was two other agents down the road, maybe a mile away, and then another agent that mile. So that, well, why can't we be the go-to then just there and then also next door? You know, you've got to think about things when you are a business owner, not just copying what everyone else is doing, where you do see a lot of high-duty brands and they all face each other next door why they're just going to go in the first door. Uh, they're just going to see the same thing desks and people on phones. And what I did was there's an actual protein kind of place next door where everyone comes after the gym and they get the protein shakes and their breakfasts and stuff like that.

Speaker 4 27:30

And it's the generation that are then going to be your next lot of investors. It's the generation that are going to be shacking up with the partner and look up for the next rental or the next purchase or selling the property. I am right next door to that establishment and it makes more sense to put your business next to something that's putting generally your business thing smarter, not balls. And we know it's like who are your customers? Are your customers the ones that are just going to go along all the other branches and go on their fees a bit cheaper, so they'll go in there along all the other branches and go. Their fees are a bit cheaper, so I'll go in there for me at the start?

Speaker 4 28:04

No, that's the younger generation, that's the trendy, proud. That's where they're going, because what I was finding as well when I was doing the market research and I was trying to get valuations before I got the job, you'd have the older generation and I know how's your interest you then, but how's your punch? And know, and then having to explain yourself and justify what you are. Where's the world that we're in now? It is mobile phones, it is AI, it is all digital. It is about being on Instagram and being, you know, social. So it's that next wave of investors, buyers, sellers, tenants.

Speaker 1 28:44

You know young people who are working in development, people here, builders, contractors, electricians, and that's why I, that's why I'm what it just happens like you think about, like some of the conversations we have had in the past where some have said that you know brochures, for example, printing a brochure of them they said it's a digital format must be one. And they they always think about doris, the one in 1000 who might want that particular abrasion. They worry about them but forgetting actually you've got 999 other people. You might be getting a protein check next door you don't care about.

Speaker 3 29:13

I was chatting to an agent the other day whereby he was rick. He was recalling when he first had that conversation with me, back in like whatever 2018 or whatever. We was talking about software and he said oh yeah, I need you to come and talk to one of my staff because you know she's got questions about it and she was not. We had this at the time. We had this online presentation that you send, that you send people after evaluation. She was like yeah, but what happens? Like when I go and see like you know, little old, 81 year old, that hasn't got a computer, and I'm like fuck that.

Speaker 1 29:53

So that's that's yeah, but what I meant was like it's just a ridiculous.

Women in Estate Agency

Speaker 3 29:59

Why are you asking me that? I mean, you'll figure it out, you'll write her a letter or something, won't you? You'll figure there are no problems. Like you know, like you're not thinking straight about stuff Like say, like you're thinking about it like great, okay, everyone's doing stuff on TikTok, everyone's doing stuff on Instagram, they're all going to the gym, they're all going to this protein.

Speaker 3 30:27

But this, like a good place, instead of just like I'm opening an estate agency, where are all the other estate agents there? What they all got, yeah, desks with a plant on. Oh, yeah, we do that. Then now, yeah, and then you'll be like they're making my money, working until like seven o'clock at night, all hours, getting stressed out, yeah, and just going down that wormhole of, like you said, toxicity and whatever else it might be.

Speaker 3 30:38

And just on a slightly different note, so you mentioned about that, you mentioned about, you know, the women in the state agency group and you see people on there talking about wanting to get out of their job and all of that sort of stuff. So what do you? You've experienced it for a period of time and what do you feel like the industry is generally like as a woman working inside an estate agency and also as a business owner in an estate agency, do you feel like it is still decades away from where it needs to be? Do you feel it's improving? Do you feel that people take you seriously, mock you? What's your thoughts on it?

Speaker 4 31:24

It's a bit of a mixed bag for me really. I do still get that. Do you want to talk to the business prior, maybe before you make any financial decisions? Okay, so who would that be? The company's? Mine, it's 100% mine, I own it. I have no anything. And I know that that person I'm speaking to on the phone thinks a colleague I'm speaking to is going to be another guy. I don't, and that is still there. I hate the deuses, which we all hate. There's women. When we get that, especially from a woman's listing, come on, you know who I am. You've been speaking to me for three months.

Speaker 4 32:03

I think we're all coming away from it, but there is certain aspects you know. And also, people will still phone up and say, oh, you were trying to sell me the product or whatever, and they'll say, like, can I speak to business owner? Is he there? You know that that does still happen and I think I don't think the decades away, I think we'll get, we'll become a bit more educated. I just think that all the things need to change for people to just say, well, you know, now there's the same ways that we have to address people and, um, you know, we're in a society now, where you know we are respectful and I and I am, and I hope other people are but I think with like solicitors and friends like that, they need to change their ways as well, and I think they need to step away from the deuses and then also as business owners. You know, women can be business owners and women have been business owners, but for many, many years, and not just being a woman, but also people can't start businesses on their own. They don't need funds from banks. We don't need to go and take out massive overdrafts. There are ways to do things. Um, so I don't think we're that far away from it, but I think there are things that need to change. But so for me, I think the government can't say well, you know, you can't say yes to this person because we'll see you in court, and you can't address someone as a hero, show off, you know whichever. But then, in the same respects, a law firm can say Jesus, yeah, it's like, hang on a minute, what's going on? And I think a lot of that. I mean, we could. We could go into a bad hole here with the government and the way the things are getting done in our industry, the things that are changing, that we're becoming more responsible for. That, ultimately, the government should be responsible for. But yeah, I don't think I'm a million miles away from it.

Speaker 4 33:43

The Women in Estate Agency group is fantastic.

Speaker 4 33:47

I love it.

Speaker 4 33:48

I went to the conference recently Didn't make it to last year's one and it's just such a buzz and such a vibe and I'm always on there, I'm always posting.

Speaker 4 33:59

When it first started, I think there was a few people on there who were a little bit toxic and saying horrible things to people. We were just starting out or just needed support and they got rid of a lot of those people on the group. So to have those support networks and a place where you can go to because as a male or a female business owner, I think it can be a really easy space and to have that group for women is great because there are women working in industries where I've worked before and you know I've seen all public. You guys have all kinds of things happening in those environments and it's getting better. I think you just got to grow a thick skin and I think if you're working in this industry, you should really have a thick skin after about five years anyway yeah, because that's most a lot of the problems like, regardless of whether you're, you know, female or male, yeah, are going to be similar.

Speaker 3 34:50

You've got three other powering characters and you've got some characters that, like you know, don't want confrontation, whether you're male or female, and that could be a struggle for you. But but you know, I went to the first Women in the Stadium event and I didn't really know where I was going. I just went because, like you know, I knew Sarah Edmondson and I went along to support and I just sat at the side here. Like you know, it's not my show, I'm just going to see her and observe. And I actually learned quite an important lesson for myself from the way I talked to my wife.

Speaker 3 35:25

But I thought, was everybody really, which I felt was, like I'd always been of the opinion that, like I don't know, we do a conference, let's say I may have 250 people there and there are men, there are women there and everybody's. What is it like? I've it. That's how I got four or five men on the stage and you're free to ask questions. I'm not making it a male event, but when I went to the women in the stage to see them, what I found was that it was all women on the stage. It was mainly women in the audience and immediately I felt like I wasn't able to ask the question because I'm stumbling by a bit.

Speaker 4 36:43

And immediately I felt like I wasn't able to ask the question because, like you know, I stumbled by a bit and I just thought like never really thought it like that on the birth side, I think when I went through there was quite a lot of men and they had men and there was a really interesting talk about um, depression, you know, and it was great to hear from both sides and everybody's stories as well, because sometimes as well, not just as business owners, but just people, just life, just working. We, you never know what someone's going through, you never understand. That's going back to the palestine girls when they go right you don't, you don't, you don't, we don't know.

Speaker 4 37:22

And I think the older we get as well, the more wise we get to things like that. I think you know I'm very much a really chilled out boss. I'm not I wouldn't even call myself a boss everyone's colleague and you know, and I think that's just the way that I am as a person, because I think I've seen so much and I've been through so much and I think you can get the best from people if you're there for them, you support them and you understand people as well. And I think that group is really great for that and it really gives women the opportunity to be able to talk about things and express how they feel, with no kind of judgment on it.

Speaker 3 38:02

Yeah, I mean, there's still a few people in here like I said, there would have been a point in my life certainly where I would have felt I would have probably felt a bit like why do you need a woman in the state agency group? You know, because, like you're just in stage, I'd see that blah, blah, blah. That event kind of changed my view on it to the point whereby I could see, like I can now look at it and think you were just in a general estate agency group and you decided to post a question about something you were struggling with. There would 100 be some element of like, yeah, but you know he's winning definitely should not be like, and that's what.

Speaker 3 38:45

That's why it's nice to have that support, like whether, like, there is none of that. Would you just have a normal conversation about the thing that I asked?

Speaker 1 38:52

I think we do find that, you know, even similar with our community group. We've got, you know, I mean there's uh, if you'd be comfortable with the trial you're in, but we have agents who just chuck anything in there. But but it's some of it like it's. They've got genuine problems in their business and they're happy just to basically just like what.

Speaker 1 39:11

300 members of that whatsapp group and I just put, saying you know, I'm having a problem with this, there's no green bus right and without that they're going to be lonely business owners. It's going to be in their head, it's going to be troubling them. They're thinking how do I get around this? And who do I ask? He was just thinking, just shut up about your stay in care like your partner, your mate, your family member. So for the group it's great to hear that because we had that same conversation. We had the same conversation we had about when we did EAX and our event and talking about that, and it wasn't because it was like we were on an all men dominated set and we have had women in the past. From there we just consciously discussed the thought, actually, that you met Laura upstairs. Laura's a phenomenal agent and it's good to have that mixed group of conversations that can happen.

Speaker 3 40:09

Okay, so how are you going to do? You think that there's a danger that as your company continues to grow, you get more popular and more people start going to the company. You are less able to give the. You going to do the. You know, see some all the way through the transaction and if you were to go down the self-employed road, that could be even more. You know this person thinks that they've got their own business and they're going to do it their way, even as under your brand. Like have you got any plans on? Like you're thinking, like how you might stick to that idea of transparency and being nice with people and just helping people and rather than like, as it starts to get more popular, you just let's just get the work done I never want to be that agent.

Speaker 4 40:59

So when I started the business that was very much I could have done that. I could have went and got that loan or joined, you know, one of these franchises and paid at the centre. So that was covering my overheads and I could just bring in sales, progressor, lettings negotiator. But for me it's about having that support. So I always want to continue to do that. So I will grow as my team grows. I'm not doing it the other way around, so I'm not going to start going okay, we're doing really well. I will put a stop on it. So for me, with my business plans, it's very much. If that level of service isn't being delivered, we're not taking on any more stock costs. Not doing it. That's the way I want to be, because if I don't, I'm just the same as the other agents. I'm just thinking, oh, ding, pound signs. That's not what I'm about. I'm really not about that, and I know a lot of people are, and that's fine for them, and I am an entrepreneur and I'm running a business and then need me to feed myself. You know, I've slept on a roof in Greece for a week once before. I'll do it again. For you know, for me I will stop where I'm at. So I do my fees at the fair. Now they're not extortionate. I'm at 1.2%. I've survived recently to go much higher than that, but of course with the lessings I started off low and you build up a reputation, so for me I want it to become we kind of choose you, you not choose us, so then we can be a bit more playful with the clients and then also say you know, we're not actually taking on more stock at the moment because I want you to have the service that I've promised everybody that I'm going to give, and whether that works or not, that's what I want and that's what I believe in and that's what I want all my staff to believe in, and I also. It's not just about the customer. For me it's going back to the, the mentorship with the staff and giving them that support.

Transparency and Customer Service

Speaker 4 42:55

The amount of companies that hide away for a little bit, as you can hear, see where you get on there and you're like, oh, sink or swim, and for me I don't want that. Even if you've come to me and you've got six years less experience of working at a franchise, there's a lot of bad trades that come with that and you don't bring to me, you bring to me the customer service. You know how it operationally that will work. But do you have that je ne sais quand? Are you that person who's going to wrap their arms around the customer? Your venues is the core, my core value.

Speaker 4 43:30

I keep going on to my son about it and I think he's like go on, shut up and every week and I sound like a broken record and I will continue to do that until he boxed me in that coffin because it's really important to know that what I've said I'm going to do, we're going to do, and for me, if we get too many properties coming in, too many listings, I'm so sorry you're going to have to take it to another region because I need to deliver the service. So once my new lessings manager has had our hail on board and you for next few months, right, she's got it, she's a machine, she's off, she's already a already a machine. She's fantastic. James is doing crown dedication training, which is very specific to property, which is great. He's doing that.

Speaker 4 44:15

He'll then manage the maintenance and making sure he got it, not just bringing lots of people in and just be like, yeah, getting loads of money doesn't work. It comes and kicks you in the arse eventually and I think you lose your credibility. You know I'm not gonna then just book off and sun it up somewhere. Still take a couple of holidays a year, try and relax, which I haven't done for many years. Um, but yeah, that's, that's what I'm gonna do and then eventually open up. What if I?

Speaker 1 44:43

do you learn a lot? Uh, with doing the lessons for us and the sales, because I, I trained this obviously predominant sales and first and the sales, because I, I, I trained this obviously predominant sales. And I went to lettings and I thought I'd just just take everything, anything gone, because in sales, like I know, there's some element difference to that. But you've, you go for a sales process and there's an end result of the house being sold, not, you mark your lettings home and then you have to manage it and if it dogshit, it's hell and you can't. You can't manage them, it just, it just puts a strain on you with the third it puts a strain on like.

Speaker 1 45:15

And I remember going when I moved over to the letting side and I looked at the feasibility of our portfolio at the time, I thought I soon identified a couple of clients who were just awful clients to deal with and they took up so much time. And I remember saying to the business owner at the time saying, look, we're going to sack these ones. Yeah, he's like what are you doing and why are you doing it? And it's I'm going to say it's a if you were coming from a sales, it's about the lettings which take anything on and they don't have that experience.

Speaker 3 46:02

So it's good to see that, because I think a lot of people of the business um, but whenever I've dug into a company's processes and everything they do in their sales team, it's just a fucking mess. It's just like you know you did everything to sweet talk somebody on evaluation and then after that it's just a fucking mess. Whereas lettings you can't afford to do that. Like it has to work a certain way and so like, if you ran your sales department with as much efficiencies as you ran your lettings department, guess what? You probably have some pretty happy guests stop living in a dream.

Speaker 4 46:39

You're selling sunset. It isn't all, like you know, glamorous, it's not that. And I think you're right in what you're saying. Like, oh, a lot of the experience comes from lettings, because that's where you consistently have to problem solve all the time for long periods of time With sales. It is that transactional period or you want them to come back. But that's what I was saying with other agents. I was saying like I don't care. Once that valuation is up they've got to pay conditions later. So it's just not like that. And I'm very much like that with the lettings as well.

Speaker 4 47:14

So that's why I brought in my son for the property management is, you know, the lettings manager's not you know, a couple of days a week you'll pick it up and oversee it. But having people being accountable for their own job roles and having that support in there and that they can do it and the necessary training that they need, it doesn't turn into dog shit. Then it's like there's a consistency. You know it's not rocket science. Get a client, you market the property, you find a very good tenant. If that tenant's an idiot on the viewing and your staff members are you focused on the commission? That staff member's, not for you. Yeah, always use your common sense. So I always, again, I get a lot of accountability to the lettings manager. If you put an absolute numpty in this property just because you want you, if they didn't or you could commission whatever it is, is that worth it for six, seven months, twelve months, of that person constantly emailing, constantly calling you, making all kinds of issues? It's not just think about.

Speaker 1 48:09

Clients can't be tenants the ones that say they'll take you out as it is and they might go in there. They're like they want to want a full redecorate the place and only change his carpets. And remember those SCP call. What did you learn from your property sourcing side with the agency you've dealt with like going into the sales side as a buyer, fetty, because that must have seemed quite a lot on that side dealing with agents looking at viewings, looking at properties, seeing how a neg showed someone around, how they answered the phone, how you sell as gross free, because even my partner and I it's selling, we're selling a flat on hers. And but you know, because of my experience and agency, she's like just, you just deal with it, because I I ain't got clear what we're doing and like it seemed just crazy the conversations we had.

Speaker 1 49:01

Like a viewing takes place, one of the team members messages here. She was like whenever we do a view and this guy books a viewing, I never hear anything back from him. I was like, well, he actually messages me. And then the other one is like. I was like, well, I don't even hear back from this one. She's like, oh, she messages me. And I was like, how mad is this, the fact of, like you're getting random bits of feedback, we're getting the same confirmation. I was thinking like such a simple process of thinking. I'm thinking that one in the office is shit and she's thinking that person has a shit. Yeah, but actually they're both.

Lessons from Property Sourcing

Speaker 4 49:34

I lose a bad taste in your mouth. And I think for me, I learned so much because of when we come out of COVID. It was crazy because there was a lot of investors, you know, selling data for properties and names and exchanging believing on those for deal sourcing, and I was building up really good relationships with agents and Deja Fuzz properties and, in some, exchanging believing on those for a deal. So since and I was building up really good relationships with agents and I also had a little black book of snotty agents, so I thought I knew I was going to start my own business at some point. I thought they're going in my black book because if they ever come to me in the future which people should always remember that as well and I've always been, you know, very fixated on that, like and I've always been, you know, very fixated on that Like you know you should treat people with all the same respect because you never know when you meet on your way down. And you know a lot of the agents were rude and too pushy when it was coming to the sales progression. They were saying you know solicitors saying this and saying that and I know that's got a lot to do with conveyance. But the worst thing was going on and they just stood by the door um, messing on the phones. One guy was sitting outside blasting dance music while they looked around and I think because he got so familiar with me viewing and and also because they were in a fortunate position where they were just like, oh, I'm like you're gonna get 20 grand a day, but anyway, because it's you know, we just got past covid and everyone's buying properties in Liverpool and Manchester and we don't have to put in the work. And I just thought no, and I think there was only one agent in Manchester I can't remember the name of it, can't be, and I should, because she was fantastic. And as soon as I went in and she does what I do she went in, she told me all the features of the property, the way that it should be done, and she was like this was the discharge of those that it should be done, and she was like this with the disorders, discipline, this was done late on the extension in such and such time, without having to pull up the property, questioning and stuff. Um, and she knew it and she cared.

Speaker 4 51:16

And I found when I was property sourcing they were too cocky. It was like don't care. And they were hiring people as well who a lot of agents, you know, retired people, which is great, giving people opportunities but they're just door openers. And I think when you are doing property sourcing, you're buying for investors. They don't know how many investors you bought up your sleeve.

Speaker 4 51:40

I was going out to Hong Kong, put my commenters teaching in about letting some lines on because they don't understand it once they bought their investment. So educating them on that side. These clients are buying 10, 15, 20 properties. They're going to be in Norwich through the property she financed them, come back and up again and some agents were not seeing that, whereas I would want my staff to be trained in that, because we don't know. You know, you see, like Elon Musk is wearing good jeans and a t-shirt. We don't know, you know, you see, like Elon Musk is wearing a pair of jeans and a t-shirt. We don't know what people's backgrounds are or what their intentions are. So you've really, for me, I learned that you've got to go that extra mile, no matter what, even if you have the shittiest day ever. Your car's broken, you know, my husband crashed the other week in front of his car for the day because his van was broke.

Speaker 1 52:30

You've just better just say no, dopis. Did you find that attitude changed a few years later, when the wave just crashed and everyone was like shit? No.

Speaker 4 52:39

Still see it now. I've been on beans looking for a house on their husbands and some of the agents in my local area are just not either going. Should they let in the vendors? Uh, booking them in at the wrong time, just not turning up, and I hate that. I hate lateness, punctuality being there. You know, when I train sap, I'm like even in lessons get in there, because you should be checking for safety anyway. Is there any trip hazards? No, again I have to go to the slides over things like that.

Speaker 4 53:07

Go in, pick up the post, move it. The amount of humans have gone and there's just crap everywhere. You're like, yeah, they have been in cobwebs and it's been all by the face and you know, and it's those little things matter, they really do. And and just being there, a lot of the time I'll be in a, you know, I'll be in a property and people will come in and be like, oh, I was just showing this man her. I'm like no, I'm the agent, because they think because I'm in the front door, it's my home and it's the first time in meeting me. It's like, you know, I had a client the other day and I listed the property on the Wednesday.

Speaker 4 53:39

It sold on Thursday. Yeah, scary, because it was right by where. I've just opened the shop and she texts me. She whatsapped me just before she went. Oh, julie, I've left some candles, can you like them for me? Just before, and I love that, and I was there early, I moved the post and just checked around, opened up the patio doors, so when people come here it was a nice sunny day lit the candles and it was just really amazing, like come here now if, of course, I was a pot of baked loaf in the oven and my smell going.

Speaker 3 54:08

I love about that what you're doing there most agents are trying to do. Well, most agents who start their own business have some ideas about doing that sort of stuff in the beginning, and then what happens is they get really busy and they're turning to the company that they didn't want to be. But they earn probably a bit more money and they would be sitting there now thinking to themselves yeah, that's all very well when you haven't got enough listings. It's nothing to do with not having enough listings. It's to do with charging the amount of money that you need to charge to give that service and then finding the customers that want that service.

Speaker 3 54:46

Like Laura who you met before, who saw the podcast may be out by now I don't know if it'll be out soon or after this one, but either way, laura's gone on that transition. She's gone from starting a business, small niche, giving people a good service, falling into a business where she doesn't charge enough money and then slowly, slowly learning to bring it back to look what is it you offer people and how much do they have to pay to get it. And if nobody wants it, then you ain't got a business. But if they do want it, then you get to have the business that you want. You get to deal with the people you want. You get to do the job that you want. It's fucking brilliant.

Speaker 4 55:22

Yeah, of course, and I think that's what it's about. So for me, if it gets to the point where everyone wants to work there, raise your fees, raise your fees and then train the staff, slow it down, just slow it down so you can get them the service. And I'd rather increase the fees and have 10, 15 misstands than be like you know, there's lots of agents now. You know, I've seen a banner the other day on my movie and it's like sell your house at four, nine. Finally, what a load of shit. They're gonna phone up that because I know it's a local franchise, it's not four, nine, five.

Delivering Exceptional Customer Experience

Speaker 4 55:56

And I just think you know, don't play that game. And I just think you've lost the trust of that client instantly. You know it's like me saying, oh, it's only this, and then I'll fill you up and then I going to charge you for your AMLs, I'm going to charge you for this and then charge you for that. You know, and we just had that interesting conversation before which was like well, I charge up front now and I'm like well, I've just decided now I'm going to start charging for the photography or I'm going to get a project that's going to do the photographs. I mean, I've got a master's, I should be able to do it yourself, but I've got enough to do. But the the thing is is like that's where you can control your business. Then it's like and you don't, you want to come away with us because you know that we're really good at what we do. I'm here when you come into the view and I'm making sure that you know that words of the clients. I told them what to do to make the house look great and you know that was her idea to light the candles and stuff and asking me to go them out and just being responsible for your actions as well. And if you were to go to an agent who is just being paid to have an adored, and I can do that, it's not my job, I'm not gonna do that. But by bringing people on board who you know, manual listening manager, I'm like I want you to get through the morning with your general tasks and then I want you networking whatever you do with that afternoon, whether that's viewings, inspections or sitting on tiktok all afternoon you do that. So giving them the basic skills, following the rules and regulations and make sure that you're updating the customers in the morning and then just going that extra mile in the afternoon and I want everyone to do with saying you know if you're updating the customers in the morning and then just going that extra mile in the afternoon and I want everyone to do the same. You know if you're late, you're late. Sometimes traffic's terrible, you know it'll have killed. We've got footballs on mostly if you know result or I'm stuck, but again pull over, call, call the customer and tell them and it's just again.

Speaker 4 57:45

With the maintenance I've been saying to me some james, I'm like the tenant reports the repair comes through the app. We have knowledge it. We speak to the landlord, the landlord to prove it. You tell the tenant. You then chase it. A few days later you then complete the job. You then tell the landlord. You then tell the tenant. You then go back to the tenants and say to the tenant are you happy with that maintenance repair? Do you understand what I mean and why I'm getting you to do that? And he's like no.

Speaker 4 58:11

And I said because that tenant not just the landlord, but when that tenant needs, that tenant's going to need was a good review. They're going to tell the friends the friend could be wanting to rent the property out, they might want a property almost in the future, they might want to buy a property or sell a property, and also that landlord knows that we give a shit about their property and we've made sure that continue like, are you okay? There's infamy can help, but just that constant customer journey and I think a lot of agents just really like that because they're too focused on yeah, I'm gonna listen, we've got this, that's great, but how are you doing it? And you're just getting the listings because you're lying to them and saying the price and you're promising them things that you're not going to deliver. There's lots of properties in the area.

Speaker 3 58:58

Well, I'm gonna use that work for where, like if I've got a kicker to another department, yeah, because it is okay, great, and then, and then what? What?

Speaker 4 59:07

that doesn't matter yeah, and then you're all scarping into the toilet when a customer comes in running up and then leave the company anyway in like six months because they're thinking I'm fed up of dealing with this and I'm fed up taking the blame for someone else.

Speaker 4 59:22

And you know I've worked with people before and they'd be like I've been the. The desk is there. So as soon as the customer comes in, all day they're just getting hounded, hounded and especially with lessons, especially again thinking about the area where you're going to set up your business. There's lots of other areas it could have gone to. But then I thought, no, I know the type of people you were going to come in door. You may kind of phone taxi on your phone.

Speaker 4 59:44

You know I've worked in those areas before and you think we've got to really think about your business and where you want to be and what you're going to do with it. You know I see people now in the area who are working with the Hatham Association, the certain local organisations. They're hiring lots of staff to help. It's a short-term thing and it's high poverty source and you probably see all these, like you know, get-rich-quick schemes and training courses, they're all doing and they're all like a high five for each other. And now I've got a range. So, no, I'm not bothered, I'm driving around above. Yes, that's okay, it's about the customer for me and I think that's how I continue and I say I'll retire at Vooqify, but we'll see.

Speaker 1 1:00:27

Yeah, Can't for me. I've been doing it.

Final Thoughts and Podcast Close

Speaker 2 1:00:32

Thanks for listening to this Estate Agency X podcast. Can you make sure that you're actually subscribed to this podcast channel if you liked the content? It helps us massively to get better guests, and it just helps us generally. So you might think you're subscribed, but just have a double check whatever your podcast platform of preference is that you're actually subscribed and then that way we can continue to grow the channel and get better and better guests for you.